tillerman
Comment on November 12th, 2009.
I had a friend who would always ask at the “skippers meeting” which side of the pin the RC would be using to define the starting line. We all thought he was being a bit obsessive, especially at small local regattas with little inflatable buoys. But maybe not. Even those small inflatables can be 18″ wide.
Having said that, I think the answer that every RC gave when they were asked was that they would be using the front (course side) of the pin buoy. If nothing else his question made them think about it and decided on a clear choice and communicate it.
But I agree with you. A better definition is needed.
Buzz Reynolds
Comment on November 13th, 2009.
A way to help everyone avoid individual and general recalls is to ammend the Sailing Instructions such that the 1 minute rule is in effect at all starts and the RC can start to call boats over the line starting at one minute. This has several advantages:
1- the boat over the line is hailed before the start and gets a chance to re-round the starting line and make a proper start rather than being called after the start and being behind everyone. The boat over thus clears his starting lane for a boat behind the line. Similar to a foul before the start where a boat can do their circles before the gun. This helps the boat that is over the line to get back behind the earlier, start properly and get a better race result.
2- By calling boats over at one minute, the RC is defining where the line is which keeps other boats behind the line.
Once the fleet sees a boat called over they know the RC is taking numbers, they know where the line is defined and it prevents “creep” over the line. The tendency for a boat sitting over the line luffing to pull other boats up to it and create general recalls stops. With really long lines this is especially helpful as it is extremely hard to know where the line is. Getting boats over the line out of the way to let boats starting legally and avoiding recalls is good for the fleet.
3- It helps the RC by getting boats that are blocking the pin mark out of the way so the starting line is always visible. I have always used the front (course side of the pin mark ) as the line extension. This is good for the RC as recalls are avoided.
I have used this modification to the SI’s for the past ten years at the Mid-atlantic Junior Olymoics where we have any where from 50-100 420/lasers/optis on the line. It has cut down on general recalls dramatically and made the regatta that much more enjoyable.
I have been to World Championships where entire days are wasted to general recalls. Allow the RC to “define” the starting line (whether they define it at the downwind or upwind side of the pin buoy) by calling boats over early at one minute and you will see the line clean up quickly.
John Chamberlin
Comment on November 13th, 2009.
The issue is simple put the definition in the sailing instructions. Another way of curing the over early is to put a committee judge at the other end of the line. With a camera. No questions of over early. With one at this end of the line it also prevents the center bulge where the obvious boat is called and all others which are not visible get away free. At two races where I acted as a judge the camera worked and we had clean starts.
John Chamberlin
Pat
Comment on November 13th, 2009.
I’ve actually defined the forward (flagstaff/course side) edge of the flag on the committee boat as the boat end but haven’t had a problem with the pin. But, we have fairly generous startline lines with an eighteen-inch pin.
Means Davis
Comment on November 13th, 2009.
As said before, it must be clearly stated in the SIs which should delineate the intentions of the RC and the obligations of the competitors. By custom, not rule, the start line is from the course side of whatever object is being used on each end of the line. It should never be a flag as Andrew clearly described those limitations. If using flags at each end it is best to describe the line as being between the staffs displaying the flags and the line sighter should sight the other end with both eyes seeking to get off a fair start.
Armando Goulartt
Comment on November 13th, 2009.
It is very simple. Just write on the SI the folowing:
The starting/finishing line will be a straight line between the course side of a starting/finishing mark and a staff on the RC boat.
Armando Goulartt
IJ/IU/IRO
Brendan
Comment on November 13th, 2009.
Good post and comments. I’m surprised to see that pretty much everyone considers either the front or the back of the pin to define the line. I’d always assumed that the line was between the staff on the RC boat and the exact center of the pin (or to be a little pedantic, the apparent exact center of the pin from the perspective of the RC).
Bruce Martinson
Comment on November 14th, 2009.
Thanks for bringing this issue up. I checked the SI’s at the two clubs I sail and at Minnetonka the SI’s say the “course side of the mark”( the diagram clearly shows this for both the starting line and finish line). Wayzata’s doesn’t define it (it will next year). The same PRO works at both clubs and I’m sure he calls the line the same way. Oh to have well written SI’s! It would be nice if Appendix L (Sailing Insturctions Guide) in the second 11.2* would add”couse side” when it mentions the starting mark and in 13 the finish. The existing diagrams in Appendix L (Addendum A) clearly show the course side of the starting and finish marks. I will make that sugestion to US Sailing.
Rich Roberts
Comment on November 14th, 2009.
Hi, Andrew…. E3.7 of the RRS reads: “The starting and finishing lines shall be tangenital to, and on the course side of, the starting and finishing marks.” Do I win anything?
Rich Roberts
Comment on November 14th, 2009.
…however, upon further review, E3.7 is in Appendix E of the RRS, for Radio-Controlled Boats. As you suggested, there is no such clarification I could find for conventional racing. Is it possible that nobody ever thought of it?
Bill Campbell
Comment on November 15th, 2009.
Andrew,
Great question. At San Diego YC the SI’s read “The starting line shall be between a staff with an orange flag on the RC boat and the course side of mark S” (Mark S being the pin mark which is usually a 4′ cylinder buoy) For some reason we had asked this question a couple years ago and came up with this wording to the SI’s and have used it ever since. I guess it will be a question asked at every major regatta from here on out.
Graham
Comment on November 15th, 2009.
From a purely logical viewpoint, the start/finish line has to be clearly identifiable and not subjective, therefore it should not be the centre of the pin. There is nothing wrong with thinking of the pin end of the line as being the width of the pin marker, as it still remains clear that ‘over the line’ has to mean past the course edge of the pin. Therefore the course edge as seen from the Committee boat should represent the line for practical purposes. As any sailing line is notionally on the water it should be the front (course) edge at water-level. This helps take care of strong wind/current situations where the marker is sloping.
Matt Bounds
Comment on November 15th, 2009.
Means and the others mentioning the SI requirement hit it spot on. A tet is a poor choice of starting buoy, since it’s forward edge is often the lower point and it can rotate, changing the sighting line. A cylinder or sphere is better and a small boat with a staff/flag is best, since you have another pair of eyes sighting the line.
Rich Aaring
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
Interesting discussion. I have used the center of the ball when we have used a ball. When we use a cylinder, I used the vertical center of the cylinder and when the wind leaned it over, I the attachment point at the bottom’s center. When we use a tetrahedron, I used the peak or top which also was usually the center. I don’t know that there is a correct answer, but a consensus would be nice.
Bruno De Wannemaeker
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
I believe and allways used the the principle that all race officials are there to help the sailors/surfers.
So before we make a descision (and or disqualify somebody) we give them allways the benefit of the doubt.
This means for a starting line we look at the course side of the line we look for, for the finisch line also…..
Ray Redniss
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
If I understand the way the line was described in these particular SIs, it was between an orange flag on a staff on the Signal Boat and an orange tetrahedron. To me, that is sloppy. Where on the flag…where on the tet??? The SIs should be writrten clearly and concisely such that there is no ambiguity. Competitors should be able to concentrate on sailing, not trying to figure out what things mean.
“The starting line shall be between a staff flying an orange flag on the signal boat and the most windward point of the start pin.” Using the “windward side” of the pin, works even if you set the start-finish in the middle of the course.
Bob Bush
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
The “course side” addition to the SI’s is what was taught at US sailing RC seminars a number of years ago for this exact problem. Similarly, the finish line should have the same “course side” addition in its description. The use of a staff at either end is typically small enough not to cause a problem, but when I am RC’ing, I watch the starting line from the course side of the staff
Richard Chesebrough
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
Having coached Collegiate Racing for 20 years and also worked race committees for 40 years, the subject is, and has been, controverials. It definately must be included in the starting verbage but, in my opinion, is wrong in most SIs. Using the Course Side instantly obliterates the mark from the view of the spotter. I repeatedly suggest the leeward side (or starting area sode if downwind start) so the spotter has full view for at least the width of the mark.
Of course, the real answer for important regattas is to use anchored pin boats so the line can be officially called from both ends.
Pat Lymburner
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
I agree with Means and as an instructor have always taught that the “course side” of start/finish lines is fairest for the competitor and simpler for the line judge, as a judge I have sat on protest committees and heard other descriptions. It my be simplest to teach that it be put into the SI.
Corky Potts
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
It is simple–use the course side of both the port and starboard ends of the start AND finish—-OCS=on course side and finish is obvious.
Keith Kenitzer
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
If we look to other sports, we are all familiar with the “plane of the goal line” in football, which is understood to be the leading edge of the line heading into the end zone. However, if we look to hockey, in calling “off sides” or a “goal, the puck must completely cross the line, so the trailing edge is the defined point. Baseball and tennis lines are somewhat similar to hockey in that the lines are in play. Oops, I guess other sports don’t help, other than to say, they all define where the line is, so I guess sailing should do the same. Sounds like something for the next RRS.
Bob
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
I think that Graham has the most valid point, but not the right conclusion. When the line is defined in the SI as between the staff on the CB and the pin mark, then it would seem that the “line” is the width of the pin mark at that end and tapers to the width of the staff. However the conclusion that ‘over the line’ has to mean past the course edge of the pin does not hold up. It is supported by the language in Part 3, but conflicts with the definition of starting where the requirement is to be entirely on the pre-start side before the signal i.e. the other “edge”. Given that the next rule change will be in four years, perhaps the best resolution for now would be to file a redress and appeal it so that it can be cleared up in the case law.
Geoff Newbury
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
What this discussion really illustrates is that a tetrahedron is a crappy pin. A line tangential to either the windward or leeward-most point is a moving target and disadvantages both the sailor AND the RC. Using the windward-most point also has the disadvantage that the majority of the bouy can, legally, be obscured by boats which are not OCS,while using the leeward-most point disadvantages the sailors slightly as that point is not easy to see and determine. Plus using any point which can ‘jump’ around as the bouy rotates is not really ‘fair’.
What all this ‘proves’ is that the better start pin is an actual pin: say, a 12 foot length of 4 inch or 6 inch PVC pipe weighted to float upright with about 8 feet showing and painted bright flourescent orange. If further visibility is needed, then the RC can attach a tetrahedron and the SI’s can then state that the tetrahedron is part of the mark for rounding purposes, but that the start line will be determined by a tangent to the windward (or leeward) surface of the pipe.
Even better, this sort of pin stands up well in high wind, or swells, is easily visible to both the sailors and RCand does not need to be inflated!
Grant Williams
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
Starting lines are generally sighted by the PRO from the DOWNCOURSE side of whatever marks are being used . This usually means looking at the aft edge of the pole holding the flag on the committee boat and the aft edge (at the very bottom ) of the mark at the port end. If its a flag you usually look at the float in the water since the flag and staff move around a lot.If it is a ball or inflatable any overlap would create an OCS.Sounds like the committee did the right thing.
Michael Clough
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
Copy of email sent on Nov 13th
The following opinions are soley my own and not endorsed neccessarily by ISAF but I am sure most of my colleagues wood agree with them.
Usually the description of the starting line is somewhere in the sailing instructions, but it simply said it would be “between an orange flag on a staff attached the committee boat and an orange tetrahedron.”
This instruction must be a mistake as the line should be from the mast not the flag for obvious reasons (normally would be ‘between a staff flying an orange flag’ )
There was no distinction between the front of the buoy or the back of the buoy.
Then the boat OCS would have to be over a line from the front of the mast to the front of the buoy. As a jury we would always err on the side of the competitor and I believe the RC should do like wise. Only in the unlikely event that the SI’s defined the starting line as the precourse side of the mast and/or buoy would the line differ.
Can the starting line really be that fuzzy? Is it as thick as the pin mark? Is the starting line five feet wide?
If it is not defined then yes.
Mike Levesque
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
As indicated by the number of responses, this is a popular issue for sailors. Having said that, I really haven’t heard too much discussion about this locally (Newport).
We usually use anchored boats, with certified ROs watching from the pin end with flags on both ends, and the SIs state that the staff is the line. We do leave a caveat that pin boats may be replaced with an inflatable mark, but that is really just for Murphy insurance.
As mentioned above, using the windward edge of a mark can present additional challenges, since as soon as one boat is OCS, the mark may become invisible.
However, I’ve been to many RC seminars given by several top IROs, and the common theme is this: OCS is clearly defined in the RRS (course side is upwind), but fairness is most important. As ROs, we need to consider the conditions, type of mark, and to some degree the “advantage” a boat gets by jumping out 2-4 inches with 1 or 2 seconds to go (do you really feel strong enough to want to go to the room over that?).
At events where I am calling the line, this is the standard to which I aspire. I try to be as consistent and fair as possible, and use the flagstaffs and/or windward side of the marks.
Dooley
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
That is so disappointing. I call shenanigans! I’ve been coaching the Course Side means in the direction of the first mark for over ten years. The Course Side of the buoy whether a mooring pickup or giant inflatable defines the line. How else could you possibly define OCS? The guy calling OCS’s for overlapping the buoy was on a power trip and should be investigated for fraud. He has no right calling a line at such an important race. How on earth did that person get certified? and furthermore how did ICSA let this happen?
Philip Hubbell
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
The windward-most point of a tetrahedron can not only rotate but also - with the smallest chop conditions - can instantly disappear and reappear from the line-callers’ view. Using the centerpoint (peak) of the mark for tets or spheres is the only reasonable point to use: 1. It fits the “dictionary” definition, just as a dot drawn of any size on paper is used to define a point on a line, 2. It is definable-enough for human eyes, and 3. It remains visible to line-callers while boats approach the line.
Willie Crear
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
Next question…where on the monster tetrahedrons are the Race Committee sighting when calling out finishing boats?
Bill Campbell
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
Not that it is an official interpretation or rule, but page 254 in the 2009 US Sailing Race Management Handbook under the caption SIGHTING THE LINE, it says “It is generally accepted that the course side of the starting mark (the upwind side if the start is upwind) is used to sight the starting line.” Putting language in the SI’s is still the best way to define the issue.
Greg Duncan
Comment on November 16th, 2009.
used a yellow dock house and pin this weekend while I lined aboat up with them. Club race for a turkey. used the course side as the line. was taught this way. everybody was late anyway.
John Culter
Comment on November 17th, 2009.
Interesting discussion. It might well be that we should only use flags displayed on poles instead of tetras, and always have a boat anchored at the pin end. But in the real world, we use the course side of whatever marks define the line as the reference points Further, ISAF suggests thinking about the line as a 30 cm (one foot) band extending to weather of the two startimg marks. Boats in the band are legal.
The point is, as noted by several other experienced race officers, we’re not interested in tossing competitors who are more or less on the line at the start. We are trying for a fair start, where no one has an unreasonable advantage. The benefit of any doubt goes to the sailor, hence the idea of a band in front of the ‘line’.
In an 18 boat Laser fleet, it should be pretty easy to educate boats that consistently press the line. Rule 41(d) allows the RO to communicate, by voice or otherwise. Sounds like someone hasn’t been on a RM course for a few years.
Andrew
Comment on November 17th, 2009.
Thanks for all the comments. I’ve posted a reply to the thread on the front of CampbellSailing.com
Allan Terhune Sr
Comment on November 17th, 2009.
I’ve always sighted the line by using the course side edge.Changing the rule in the SIs as per Buzz’s comment makes life very hectic for the R/C at that time.
Early x flags and hailing during countdown and actual start can lead to confusion and bigger redress issues.
The R/C can use the I flag at all starts without a rules change in the SI’s.
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