“Frankly, pros have no place in the vast majority of sailing…”

March 1st, 2010 in General.

An interesting interview coming from a US Sailing interview with author Nicholas Hayes led off Scuttlebutt today. I’m not sure where Mr. Hayes get’s off with his strong comments in such a public forum. For a sailor trying to promote and grow the sport, it’s a little tough to understand his negativity toward professionalism in sailing. Here are his comments:

US SAILING: Amateurs often compete against professionals… Some believe this is great for the sport. What is your take?

Nicholas Hayes: …I don’t know many amateurs who think it is great. (I know, snarky… but true.)

Seriously, let’s start here: sailing is only a sport when sailors race. It is better defined as time spent on the water with family or friends. Racing is just one format, and it represents about 20% of sailing (in terms of time.)

Secondly, I like to race, and I like to take home a flag when I do… but the majority of sailors know that a race is meaningless except in the friendships that it secures and the memories that it makes. This perspective is shared by 99% of sailors, and applies to 99% of starts. Frankly, pros have no place in the vast majority of sailing as it is done today, and I don’t see that changing much.

I go to lengths in the book to explain how sailing as a profession doesn’t sync well with sailing as a pastime. I’ve come to conclude that if someone is able to convince someone else to finance their fun, so be it… but the progress in technique or skill isn’t worth the costs in the whole. I hope your readers will consider the evidence that I present and decide for themselves.

I’ll concede that I have not read his book, but after reading these paragraphs I’m quite skeptical. Unfortunately his interview response probably hits more people than he thinks who will read only the interview and not consider the evidence in order to decide for themselves. While I understand Mr. Hayes is writing to grow the entire concept of “sailing” from cruising on the lake in your sunfish all the way to the America’s Cup, I’m not sure that his comment “a race is meaningless except in the friendships that it secures and the memories that it makes,” helps to make his point. I regret that Mr. Hayes fails to understand the camaraderie and respect between professionals and amateurs alike at the highest echelons of any sport, including sailing. A match race between two boats of professionals will have the same level of respect for the rules and each other as a match race between two amateur squads. Professionalism and elite amateurism as in the Olympic arena provides a measuring point to which other racing sailors might aspire.

By disconnecting that elite group of sailors from what Mr. Hayes calls “the 99%,” he fails to recognize the path by which elite sailors get to the top. There are very few professional sailors who did not start at a basic level of the sport or even a more casual form of sailing. As sailors improve through the ranks of any aspect of the sport whether it be match, team, fleet, distance, inshore, monohull, multihull, skiff or foil racing they always look to the higher level sailors to learn and practice techniques. Youth sailors look up to professional and Olympic sailors in addition to their parents and peers to show them the way forward in the sport.

I appreciate Mr. Hayes comment that “It’s hard to imagine a grandma, son and grandson all playing soccer together, but it’s easy to find them playing together on a sailboat.” I grew up racing with my parents and my grandparents, but I think my grandmothers would be the first ones to tell you that if I only raced against them until I was 23 years old I might not have been able to represent them at the Olympic Games. More than 1% of sailors recognize the need to compete against the best to become better. Pros make racing better. Pros make sailors better. If a person wants to improve himself or herself, how can you possibly make an argument against that? If they believe that the best way to continue improving in the sport is to enlist help from a professional, it is absurd to tell them they should not. If a sailor wants to improve himself or herself they must turn to someone with more experience and often more skill. At some point when the sailor wants to improve steadily he or she will need to turn to a professional for advice.

Why on earth would Mr. Hayes argue against “progress in technique or skill?” That single sentence is seemingly counter-productive to the entire goal of US Sailing. He says it isn’t worth the costs? What costs does he refer to? Is there some moral problem the Mr. Hayes sees in a professional attitude toward sport or does he simply refer to the dollars handed between individuals in return for advice and instruction? Does he think that his stake as a professional writer takes away from his children’s potential to read and write themselves? Does his position as a professional writer not influence amateur writers in a positive way? 

 This probably underlines my most important rebuttal to Mr. Hayes’ interview response: if professionalism is disconnected from 99% of sailors then it will be to the detriment of sailing. Amateurs need professionals just as much as professionals need amateurs. Adult basketball players from the local YMCA are not hurt by buying a ticket to the Wizards NBA game. In fact they’re probably better off if they were looking to learn something about the game. If an adult wants to hire a coach to improve, then let him. That doesn’t hurt anybody, it only improves the level of sailing. Sailing is one of the best examples of a sport where professionals can compete alongside amateurs on a regular basis. Why not use the opportunity to learn from each other and improve each other? I look forward to reading Mr. Hayes book and gaining an understanding of one perspective on my favorite sport.

Please visit www.CampbellSailing.com for more.

19 comments.

peter

Comment on March 1st, 2010.

it’s probably worth reiterating at this point the reason the olympics enforced an ‘amateurs only’ rule for so long. the idea was to keep professionals out. but the real reason was that the olympics were for the class of people who could afford to spend their time training without having to worry about anything so prosaic as money. (see chariot’s of fire for the simplistic explanation…)

the understandable point in what he is saying is probably related to professionals entering club races just so they can walk away with trophies as opposed to being integrated members of a ‘club’. which, from the point of view of other members of the club, can be really annoying. especially if the professional then takes the attitude that ‘it’s for your own good’

as you say, if someone wants to get better, they can enlist a professional to help. gut given your example, watching the america’s cup, the wizards or something may help, but I don’t want larry ellison or russell coutts or earl boykins coming to my club in any capacity other than visitor. (and in the case of ellison, probably not even that.) nobody gets into any sport or competition to be repeatedly spanked. competition is only fun if there is the chance that you might win. the best competitions and rivalries are those that occur between evenly matched competitors.
so yes, matching against someone that you are radically outclassed by *can* make you want to spend your whole life training to beat them, but it can also make you want to go find something else to compete in. sailing for most, now that it is no longer much of a profession outside of racing, a pastime.
as for the other point, what percentage of sailors actually qualify as being ‘elite’ in your point of view? I suspect that the number is down around the 1% mark, and from that perspective, both you and he are looking at the same wall from opposite sides, and both are somewhat unwilling to accept (or at least be happy about,) the existence of what’s on the other side.

Andrew

Comment on March 1st, 2010.

Peter.
Thanks for your comments. I think you bring up some very valid points. I do wish that Mr. Hayes would refrain from some of the generalizations that he presents.

I think that the decline of Olympic amateurism is a perfect example of how Sailing lags behind other sports in its presentation against other Olympic sports where everyone can to compete against each other. It could very easily present iteself better as a game accessible to all ages, and all skill levels on the equal playing field of experience and under the same rules.

I’m not sure that all clubs don’t want Russell Coutts to compete at their club. San Diego YC for instance will have Olympians and America’s Cup Champions race on a weekend series or a beercan race. I know there are plenty of sailors who love that access and that challenge.

I think the elite level is probably that 1%. However, where do you draw the line as professionalism making a positive or negative impact on the rest of sailing? Does a 17 year old summer instructor count as a professional? Does an America’s Cup veteran from 20 years ago count as a professional? Does a guy from the local rigging shop count as a professional? Our sport suffers badly from trying to appease sailors that want to win their local series at the expense of shunning what is probably closer to 10-15% of some sailing communities in San Diego, Annapolis, Newport, or San Francisco.

Thanks again for your response, Keep ‘em coming.

Andrew

Nicholas Hayes

Comment on March 1st, 2010.

It is neither negative, nor a generalization, to state the simple, and very real fact that 99% of sailing is a completely amateur endeavor. This from the book “Every activity has its professionals. This per se is not a bad thing. Pros set the performance standard and can inspire others to new levels of effort or achievement.” Pretty much what you said.

I hope you’ll read the book before you jump to conclusions. I suspect that we want the same thing, and that you’ll find it to be an eminently positive and constructive story and strong case for the development of sailing.

-ndh

tillerman

Comment on March 1st, 2010.

Andrew, please read the book. Nick’s off-the-cuff answer to one question in this interview is not reflective of the main thrust of his arguments in the book and his very constructive ideas for “saving sailing”. I think you will find much to agree with and support in his book.

It’s wonderful that you grew up sailing with your parents and grandparents. I hope you realize how lucky you were. That is exactly the model of mentoring within the family that Nick is advocating. I hope you can think ahead to the days when you will be a parent and a grandparent and what you will do to pass on your love of sailing (and your exceptional talent and skills) to the next generations.

Grant

Comment on March 2nd, 2010.

Andrew, we should all be encouraged to express our opinions. Your professional opinion expressed in this forum has a higher profile and more influence than one expressed over a beer. It also should represent a higher standard of responsibility. Your lashing out at Mr. Hayes’ book, Saving Sailing, without having read it, fails to live up to the responsibility you should expect from yourself.

Personally, I welcome most of the ‘pro’s’ I have raced against. They have improved my sailing and the quality of the events that we were at. But, my love of the sport is not stronger or my enjoyment better because they were on the race course. Camaraderie and respect between competitors is not reserved for the pro’s or elite, it comes from competing with people you respect. The reasons we respect people are not limited to their finish positions. Your statement that “I grew up racing with my parents and my grandparents” has more to do with your love of the sport than racing against the pros when you were growing up. As it is explained in Hayes’ book, it is the mentors, not the coaches that build our sport.

David Fuller

Comment on March 2nd, 2010.

Interesting to read a ‘professional’s’ opinion.

Hayes has done a lot of research into what people at the grass roots think (in America) and the attitude towards professionalism in the USA is different to somewhere like Australia or France.

I agree that the sport lags behind the modern world and pastimes like Rugby and Golf have managed it perfectly well and gained participants and grown their industries as a result.

I am from the Steve McQueen school of competition: to quote him badly in Le Mans - Racing is life, everything else is just waiting.

While 99% of sailing might not be professional, 99% of it is competitive. Another great quote attributed to Richard Petty, but probably someone else says - we don’t know when people started racing automobiles. We think it was when they made the second car.

Just as golfers compete for pints or a couple of bucks a hole, so to do sailors. Even cruisers will look over at the next boat and see if they are travelling faster than the next guy.

I’ll never play for the Wallabies, but that doesn’t stop me watching all the games they play. I’ll never compete at the pipeline masters, but that won’t stop me surfing. The guys that do do those things will inspire me to get out there and be like them. Sailing needs more truly great sportsmen and women that are recognisable as professional athletes and rewarded accordingly.

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Phoenix

Comment on March 2nd, 2010.

First, please read the book. I’ll bet that there will be parts that you identify with strongly.

Second, the vast majority of the events and classes really are not the proper venue for consistent professional participation. Those who really are attracted to raising their game will migrate to the classes with heavy professional participation. However, the flip side is the one boat that loads up with pros for local events and blows the doors off everyone else for a protracted period of time. Other competitors know they are outclassed and the majority simply pack it in rather than pay the price of excellence.

The same thing is true when one boat in a fleet known for frugality decides to go all out and upgrade the platform and sails. The bulk of the competitors are there because that fleet fits their skill set and wallet. If the bar goes up too far, they simply walk away.

The point is that pros can make a great contribution by coming along rarely and sharing their insights with all. They can do irreprable harm by hanging around and clubbing everyone in the head repeatedly.

Frank

Comment on March 2nd, 2010.

I relish the opportunity to race against the “professionals.” I know of no other sport where the average joe has the opportunity to compete and interact with the elite of his or her sport. Name any other sport where an amateur has the opportunity to compete against the best in the world. How many basketball fans would like to mix it up with Lebron James on the court or golf fans hit the links with Tiger Woods? It is not the winning or losing, but simply the opportunity to try. The one caveat I have, however, is when the professional takes himself too seriously, acting like a demigod with little time or tolerance for the amateur. It is, afterall, a game, a sport, and in that regard we participants are all equal.

Russell Painton

Comment on March 2nd, 2010.

I want to weigh in on the professionals issue. Having been an active racer for over 55 years, I have watched the pros run off many beginners and intermediates from classes. Pros can kill a class faster than a hurricane. What other sport allows the pros to race against the amateurs on a regular basis. If yo want to race against pros race in pro am events, just like all other sports. they are killing the sport of sailboat racing. Just look around you…

Arie v. H. den Breems

Comment on March 2nd, 2010.

Not snarky just dumb. Nick Hayes book is interesting and is important to sailing. But some one is confusing and forgetting two different elements of the same activity.

Having thought further about this comment with out question I have NEVER read such a stupid comment any where in Europe or North America. If you follow this judgment and philosophy the entire activity of sailing will be further set back. Sailing is declining for entirely reasons. But in a broad geographical region where there are no professional hero’s sailing is declining. Why can be discussed but a there are rarely professional sailors present in these regions.

Let professionals spend time and money and inspire (and often help us) to be better sailors (racers). There are more than enough classes that monitor and control what level “profs” can sail on there boats, if you feel inferior to the “profs” enjoy racing in those classes.

In countries where the “professional” sailors compete and interact with the average sailors the activity is growing or at least holding its own. As evidence look at the sailing participation in France and Croatia.

With out regard to sport few participants will reach the level of a Rooney, Percy or Clijsters, lets admire there achievements and do our best to replicate them when we sail (and or race). When we sail with family lets enjoy the time together and the memories of each sail whether racing or for a tour.

Kindly, Arie van Harwegen den Breems

tillerman

Comment on March 2nd, 2010.

My Laser fleet is full of “professionals” - coaches, sailmakers, boatbuilders, designers etc. etc. - and a whole bunch of pure amateurs like me too. I think it’s wonderful that we all get to compete together on the same course in the same boats with the outcome of each race decided on our relative skills (and a bit of luck.) Some of them get paid to race on other boats but nobody is paying them to race Lasers with me; they do it for fun, the same reason I do. I learn a lot by watching them sail and from the “words of wisdom” they pass on to the rest of the fleet. There are few other sports where you can compete so directly with the pros, and I see that as a huge positive for sailing.

Nick Hayes is partially right in saying that one reward of the sport is the memories it makes. Racing in this fleet - yes with pros - will always be one of my treasured memories of my sailing career.

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Ed

Comment on March 4th, 2010.

The UK J24 and 1720 fleets were destroyed over a very short space of time by the influx of professionals.

If - in the Dragon class - people are paying Olympic medalists to crew for them in club racing, how exactly does this encourage the majority of the fleet? Oddly enough, this fleet has very low turnouts for club racing nos.

Cost escalation kills classes.

Joanne

Comment on March 7th, 2010.

Today my husband and I spent some time discussing the comments that have been made in recent days referring to Hayes’ book.
Professional sailors, or at least the one in my house, evolved as a professional because of their passion for sailing. My husband learned how to sail at the age of 5 because his sisters learned how at a Girl Scout camp. Then throughout his childhood he sailed and raced with his family. It was a family pastime and a family sport pushed by his father. Throughout our years together he has told me countless stories about growing up sailing. Wonderful and inspiring stories. We have boxes of pictures from his childhood that show his family sailing together. It was also during his childhood that he developed the skills and techniques needed to become a successful competitor in the sport of sailing.
Throughout most of his adult life he has been considered a professional sailor and for whatever reason being a professional brings on a curious debate. It is upsetting that some individuals believe that professionals are “killing the sport of sailboat racing” and frankly I do not know how to comment on such a naïve and simple-minded point of view. David Fuller is correct…sailing is damaged a little more by its own stakeholders while this debate continues.
However, I would like to say that I am sure there is little doubt that Nicholas Hayes’ book is meaningful and I do plan on reading the book sometime soon, however in response to Mr. Hayes’ comment “how sailing as a profession doesn’t sync well with sailing as a pastime.” I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, John Kolius and countless other professional like him are the perfect example of how the pastime of sailing syncs well with the sport of sailing. And by the way…sailing is a pastime in our house.

Andrew

Comment on March 7th, 2010.

Thanks to all who commented here, especially Mr. Hayes who had the patience to read my impression of his comments. The book is on order, I look very much forward to reading it and his research. Not only am I passionate about the sport of sailing and encouraging as many people as possible to join us on the water, but I am also passionate about this problematic subject of the “pros versus amateurs” discussion within our sport. All the trouble boats have with the category 1 versus category 3 and the defining of both create a lot of bad blood in sailing that is difficult to solve. My criticism of Mr. Hayes’ answers were in direct response his unfortunate quote. It fuels the fire of an already villified class of “professionals” who are easily lumped under the general term regardless of their position. We need to call a spade a spade: a current America’s Cup sailor and a community boating center instructor are both professionals by definition and will likely both fall under category 3 status but saying that they both “have no place in the vast majority of sailing” is a bit harsh in my view.

Again, I look forward to reading Mr. Hayes’ book and following up on the subject when I have a chance to meet him at some point.

peter

Comment on March 8th, 2010.

to reiterate an earlier point. and possibly expand on it a bit, what to you is the definition of a ‘club’? to me, it’s a group of like minded people who want to band together for some reason. for fun, dinner, politics, competition, whatever. the difficulty is that eventually you get people who are not really of the same mind who want to join. but they may share a single point, they don’t really care about the rest of the club events, politics, rules, etc. but want to race hard. there are probably endless examples, both big and small where clubs from grade school upwards where clubs are broken by an attempt to foster greater competition, where the club might be better served by trying to foster better camaraderie.
I must point out that I don’t think the two are inherently incompatible. but they can be, and this needs to be recognized by all parties to the discussion. a professional or two might make this club better, but completely screw up this other one. and as far as restrictions on what makes a ‘professional’ look up Jim Thorpe and his olympic career. at least they did finally figure out they were wrong, though a bit late.

I would put it that clubs of professionals that admit amateurs will be far more successful at making more people happy (and better sailors,) than amateur clubs admitting professionals. in the first case you have the pros who want to be there all the time and the amateur who really wants to improve, enjoying themselves even if they lose a lot. in the latter case you have a amateurs who want to go out most of the time to have fun and maybe win, being continually skunked by this new professional. which leads to a lot of ‘you’re no fun anymore…’ responses, and declining attendance. Ed touches on this.

Like Frank, I ‘Relish” the opportunity to compete against professionals. you learn something. that you can then take back to your races against your fellow amateurs… if only a story… but racing for fun against a group of people who are out there for blood tends to pale after a very short time.

Kevin

Comment on March 9th, 2010.

I have read your comments with interest and have not read Mr. Hayes book. I have sailed since I was 8 years old. I started racing when I was 17. It started when I went sailing with a PRO on a 470. In one day he changed my life completely. I dreamed of being an Olympian just like the PRO did. Thirty years later I won a Gold Medal in the Olympics. I want to thank that PRO who inspired me to pursue my dream. It would never have happened without him.

Nicholas Hayes

Comment on March 9th, 2010.

Thanks to everyone for a fun debate, and to Andrew for kicking it off.

In a discussion, no words are unfortunate.

—– From the Saving Sailing Blog:

“My statement to U.S. Sailing and reported in Scuttlebutt a few days ago apparently ruffled some professional sailing feathers. I said, “Frankly, pros have no place in the vast majority of sailing as it is done today.” I meant what I said, neither critically nor presumptively, just as a fact supported by data: more than 99% of sailing is amateur.

Consider that today so few people make a living from sailing that the entire market is barely a rounding error on just one state’s annual pension obligation. Or that there are so few sailing pros in the US, that they could all fit in the bleacher seats of a high school football field. Meanwhile, in sailboat racing we have a higher ratio of pros to amateurs than in any other sporting pastime, which means that pros must fight ten times harder for much smaller scraps, while the larger market that they depend on is shrinking at an ever-quickening pace.

Pros should take solace that the book explains that they are among the victims of the debacle and not its villains. Saving Sailing isn’t a call to save sailing from pros. But it does offer practical and time-honored ways that any sailor, whether a pro, amateur, competitive or leisure can contribute to sailing, starting now.”

I look forward to chatting after you’ve read the book.

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